Democracy In Albany

Mayor Jennings on Residency Requirements

By DIA, Section News
Posted on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 08:14:49 AM EST

I honestly don't know what Jennings is trying to say here other than his usual approach of belittling anyone who doesn't agree with him (remember when he called Calsolaro "crazy")

“High ranking city officials? Mr. Ellis should do a reality check when it comes to government and when it comes to paying salaries,” Mayor Jennings said.

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Mayor Jennings on Residency Requirements | 28 comments (28 topical, 0 hidden)

Its time... (none / 0) (#1)
by mailer daemon on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:57:50 AM EST

not only to get department heads into the city but our police and firemen there too. I grew up with a police man in my neighborhood and let me tell you, he kept us in line!

My mother lives in Delmar and three of her neighbors who are no more than 5 houses away are Albany policeman.

Once they get on 787 South, do you think they give a crap about what happens to the city they are sworn to protect?

Not gonna happen (none / 0) (#3)
by AlfredMoisiu on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 02:21:08 PM EST

Let's face it, this is just a stunt to get Mr. No Name Alderman on TV so he can run for a less irrelevant office. A few quick Google searches will tell you that most of the department heads live in the city anyway.

And even if it did happen, you're not going to be able to do anything about cops and firemen living outside of the city -- state law allows them to live in any neighboring county. NYC has been fighting this fight for decades -- and if New York City doesn't have the juice to make a residency requirement that like stick, there's no way in hell that Albany can.

The only thing that a law like this WILL accomplish is further limit the gene pool for senior staff, particularly in public safety. So when Jennings retires and a new mayor decides to conduct a national search for an outsider police chief, it will just be that much harder.

A better question to ask is "Why are police officers living in Delmar?". Let's think:
- Taxes are lower.
- Your daughters aren't going to get gang-raped in the high school bathroom.
- Your kids have a 19/20 chance of graduating from high school on time, versus 4/10.
- Better access to shopping, offices, etc.
- Better property values, backyards, etc.

[ Parent ]

alfred (none / 0) (#4)
by DIA on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 02:25:05 PM EST

let me guess, you don't live in albany.

[ Parent ]

and guess what (none / 0) (#5)
by DIA on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 02:26:54 PM EST

in other states the police have to live where they work. So, if you did a national search and found a great candidate they would not be surprised to find they were required to live in the city of albany because that is only common sense.

also, many people despise the suburbs.

[ Parent ]

I do live in the city (none / 0) (#6)
by AlfredMoisiu on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 02:40:30 PM EST

And other states aren't New York. And powerful special interests (public employee unions) have taken proactive steps to fight residency requirements for public safety and education employees.

You may despise the "suburbs", whatever that means in the context of a "city" with 80,000 people. But others don't, and enjoying living in rowhouses or walking around has nothing to do with police work or pulling people out of burning buildings.

If you're going to take away the freedom for police and firemen to choose where they live, even if the law allowed you to do so, (It doesn't) you would have to compensate them for that limitation. Albany cops are underpaid as it is, so that would be a very costly decision with little benefit.

[ Parent ]

alfred (none / 0) (#8)
by DIA on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 03:18:17 PM EST

there is no point in discussing having the cops and firemen live in albany. Of course it would make sense to have people who cared about the communities because they lived there but it will never happen. These guys are showing up to work high and drunk and they can't get fired. The unions are too strong. there are more important issues to deal with. But it is very sad when cops tell people they should move out of albany because it isn't safe.

My point is that there are people who enjoy city living. Some of those people are cops. The two are not mutually exclusive.

However, Ellis isn't talking about the cops. He is talking about the city management. Do you think its unreasonable to require the person in charge of Planning for the city to have to live in the city? Doesn't it seem like living in the city you were "planning" would make you better at the job.

And now I want to go down a road you and I have been down before. You claim Albany cops are underpaid and offer no proof. You don't have a good track record with this type of thing. Prove it. Let's see the links. And, again, we are talking mostly about management. Show me how Chief Tuffey is underpaid compared to other upstate cities.

A lot of people seem to think that police/fireman are drafted into service and are not allowed to leave.. At least that is how they act. If you don't like being a cop or fireman in Albany, don't be one. No one is forcing you. This isn't the military. If its such a shitty job, do something else. If you are underpaid, quit. If you choose to accept the terms of the job, please don't excuse all of your poor performance by saying its a hard job. No one said it was easy. You took the job. Do it.

Interesting how you insult ellis for proposing an idea that is certainly worth considering. Guess what the mayor did yesterday. He put up a fucking football sign with his name across the top. But to you, Ellis is the problem.

[ Parent ]

I'll give it a shot DIA (none / 0) (#12)
by AlfredMoisiu on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 07:12:04 PM EST

I disagree with residency requirements because it's 2008. Times have changed, and people have changed. When I grew up, 80% of my extended family lived within about 8 blocks of each other. Everyone stayed in the same neighborhood.

Today it's different, like it or not. People are scattered all over the place and live where they see fit. I have a friend who commutes nearly two hours because he wants a better lifestyle for his family, and he perceives that as living in a small town.

Problems with city management have nothing to do with residency. It's about how people are hired and the standards that they are held to. A jackass who lives in Center Square is no better than a jackass who lives in McKownville.

There have been numerous discussions here about the Albany Water Board/Authority/whatver on this blog. Guess what? All of the management live in the city -- go to the city website and look them up on Google.

I don't think Ellis is "the problem". There is no one problem. He's a douchebag politician floating a useless new ordinance to get some airtime. With the exception of Calsalaro, who constantly and passionately advocates for his constituents, the rest of these officials are contemptible.

I think that the Albany Police are underpaid because their salaries are not competitive with other law enforcement entities, namely the NY State Police. The contract arbitrator will agree, and give them a substantial raise this year.

An Albany Sergeant makes less than a trooper, and probably takes 3-5x more calls. I spoke to a Albany Cop in a diner a few months ago at like 5AM after his shift, and he told me that he took 40 calls on that shift. I remember relatives on the NYPD bitching about 12.

[ Parent ]

underpaid (none / 0) (#13)
by DIA on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 06:14:34 AM EST

So, you are saying they are underpaid compared to people in different jobs than the one they do. Of course this is so. Perhpas they should become NYS Troopers if they feel that the pay scale for that job is more appropriate for the work required. However to someone is underpaid usually means you are comparing them to people who do the same job. Of course, you aren't doing this.

As usual, your statement rings pretty hollow. And isn't it more difficult to get a position with the troopers? Typically jobs with a higher barrier to entry pay higher. From the news reports I'm sure we can all agree that there isn't a very high barrier to entry at the APD.

Got any idea what a rookie cop in NYC makes these days?

An arbitration deal that cut starting pay for New York City police officers is coming back to haunt both the city and the union. New York cops start at just $25,100. Until 2005 starting pay was $36,000. But when the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association pushed for a 10.25 percent retroactive pay raise for current officers an arbitrator granted that raise while cutting starting pay for rookies. Nine hundred officers quit the NYPD last year, nearly three times the annual resignations a decade ago. And recruitment is being hurt by the low starting pay, too. The NYPD's police academy is 900 recruits short of its goal.

If you want to believe in magic cure-alls and you require any proposal by anyone you don't like to cure everything, of course you shoot everything down. No one said residency requirements would solve all our problems. We just think it is a common sense approach to having the people we pay to run the city have a stake in the results. Common sense. Obviously living in the city doesn't make you good at your job. But as we higher new good people in the future, it can't hurt to have them live in the city, and it should help.

Ellis proposes a residency requirement and that makes him a "douchebag"? Perhaps it is newsworthy when a council member proposes new ideas becausee the majority of the people on the council do nothing. Glen Casey was elected when Ellis was. Has he ever made the news proposing ways to improve the city? Since the answer is no, I guess you think he is doing a great job.

[ Parent ]

Thanks for making my point! (none / 0) (#15)
by AlfredMoisiu on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 06:14:01 PM EST

NYC is doing the same thing that Albany is doing. The only difference is that the NYPD PBA actively fucked new cops so that Lieutenants and Captains would get raises. The result of that policy is that the best and brightest young NYPD officers are taking the Nassau, Suffolk and Bergen County police exams and will leave. So the department will suffer terribly in the future when weaker candidates will be the Inspectors and Captains down the time.

In Albany, plenty of cops took the State test as well, and the best officers who score well will be called to become troopers. The long-term negative effect on a small department like Albany will be even worse than NYC.

Changing jobs for a cop (or a teacher, or a fireman) comes with alot of baggage that most workers don't have to deal with. It also illustrates how shitty it is to be a cop, since switching departments means that you lose your seniority (hello, night shift) and start at the bottom of the pack.

The police and fire chiefs already have a residency requirement... has that somehow improved the performance of the police department that you post missives about every day? Has it fixed the code violations you post about every day?

I'm not an "all or nothing" person. My philosophy is "do something useful or don't bother". We have plenty of do-nothing laws already, don't throw up another one and tell me that you're fixing something. When people like you applaud politicans for "doing something", even what the "something" is of questionable value, you're making things worse.

Ellis is a douchebag, along with the rest of the council, save Calsararo, because he proposes some meaningless feel-good legislation to get his name in the paper and gladhand some reporters. He probably needs some name recognition for primary day. If you're going to propose laws that won't pass anyway, why not propose something of substance. Why not propose that agency heads be subject to direct oversight by the Council? Or push a resolution that the next collective bargaining agreement makes stealing scrap metal a "One strike and you're out" offense?

Oh wait, that might actually accomplish something! Heaven forbid -- we can't have that in Albany!

[ Parent ]

alfred - back so soon (none / 0) (#16)
by DIA on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 06:41:11 PM EST

You are correct that the older cops in NYC fucked the newbies. Want to guess what the current cops in Albany are doing by not negotiating when the city faces serious financial trouble? You predict a big raise for the cops this year. Can...you...slowly...connect the dots? I think you can.

Yes. yes. Again we agree. The best officers leave to go be troopers. And thus the higher pay. Are you against the best people getting paid the most, comrade?

Again, we agree. Changing jobs for people who are in unions with the very best bennies and retirement after 20 years is a bummer. Other workers don't have to "deal with it" because other workers are paid on merit and not senority and don't have pensions. Like i said, if you don't like the terms, don't take the job. The reason people stay with the job is that the terms are quite attractive if you can put in your time.

Living in Albany doesn't make you smarter. But if your job is to make albany better, you should be required to live here. If you don't like Albany and just want to collect your salary, go live out a half mile past the golf course with the mayor on the city line. You have that option. Letter of the law, not the spirit.

Oh, the citizens proposed and got 3,500 signatures to have the people vote on having council oversight on the agency heads. The council voted that one down. Some members voted for it.

I see you are worried that ellis will run for mayor. Perhaps jerry can use your douchebag stuff as a pull quote on his mailers.

Now, do us all a favor and go teach your kids that calling someone a douchebag isn't something they should be proud of but daddy just got a little upset on that blog because of that asshole blogger who always proves you wrong* (note: you can teach them its ok to call bloggers assholes).

*You claimed albany cops were underpaid but have since been unable to support that in even the lamest fashion.

[ Parent ]

additionally (none / 0) (#17)
by DIA on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 06:45:56 PM EST

so you know, I agree that teachers and cops are not paid enough.

That is very different from claiming albany cops and teachers are underpaid and claiming that making them live in albany would further pile on their hardship of working in Albany.

[ Parent ]

Whatever man. (none / 0) (#23)
by AlfredMoisiu on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:44:30 AM EST

With the exception of how sales tax was allocated in Albany County, you've never proven anything wrong.

You bully, rant, spin and declare victory. You probably troll your own board as champ. It's a tactic you must have picked up from the years you've spent studying the mayor.

I do wholeheartedly agree that you're an asshole. At least you know it.

[ Parent ]

: ok. (none / 0) (#25)
by DIA on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 06:57:08 PM EST

so you've made to blatantly false statements about two of the biggest financial issues facing the city and i've proven you wrong on both. How many should we accept from you before it is a credibility issue? You claim to be a business person. How many times do you let your employees lie to you about your finances before you stop patting them on the head and giving them bonuses?
I'm glad you think i "bully". The facts seem that way to people like you. I don't declare victory, just the truth. I have no idea who Champ is and I wish he would tone it down but he gets to do his thing here just like you and one flew east and the other hacks who have since been discredited and left (remember Obnoxio who told me that i was an idiot to think that wall street banks were involved in subprime lending....I'm glad he isn't my investment advisor). But champ has one thing on his side that you don't. Facts.
Keep digging your hole deeper.
cheers.
PS. I feel for you in some way because its obvious you are smart enough to know that jennings is fucking up, tuffey is a criminal and a liar and you know that if you only had people as vaguely capable as me running the schemes for your side you'd be in the money. Like me.

[ Parent ]

Commute this pal. (none / 0) (#2)
by alfrednewman on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:05:16 AM EST

So Albany has the talent pool that is good enough to elect from but not doesn't include people smart enough to figure out how to coordinate trash removal or economic developemt? Maybe the Common Council should expand the residency requirement to include ALL municipal employees. These employees want to work for the residents of Albany, then they should live with the people they work for.
"What? Me worry? " "whatmeworry.alfred@gmail.com"

Not really (none / 0) (#7)
by AlfredMoisiu on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 03:04:00 PM EST

Judging by the conduct of city government, school board, library board, water board, etc, no.

It will never happen, but consolidating the dozens of cities, towns, villages and special districts in Albany County would make a hell of alot more sense.

When Greater New York (NYC) was created at the turn of the century, most of Queens and Brooklyn were farms. Somebody ought to figure out how they did it and do it here.

[ Parent ]

yes (none / 0) (#20)
by hailstorm on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 07:08:45 AM EST

consolidation would help a lot of upstate NY cities revitalize themselves and become more fiscally stable. but it's illegal for them to do so.

not only that, but just try convincing the suburbs to sign up for that. it's a losing battle when you need their consent. what they don't realize is that the 'burbs wouldn't exist without their core cities, as decrepit as they may be.

[ Parent ]

: Wasn't relevant when it happened (none / 0) (#22)
by AlfredMoisiu on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:39:23 AM EST

When the five boroughs were consolidated into NYC, the measures lost in Queens, the Bronx and Staten Island. It was overwhemlingly supported in Manhattan and marginally passed in Brooklyn.
So if it ever became legal, the process would be setup in a way to make it pass.

[ Parent ]

Residency Requirement (none / 0) (#9)
by tmonjeau on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 03:19:02 PM EST

Albert Moisu is right about state law and the fact that police officers are allowed by state law to live in a neighboring county (which is why Chris D's job title in the DA's office was an issue a while ago...)

Leaving that aside, I can not think of many other issues that should be a simple matter of common sense. If you work for any municipal gov't or organized community gov't, you should live in the community that employs you. If you are not willing to move to, or stay in the city that is paying you, you should find a job elsewhere, period.

As to Moisu's comment about why an Albany cop would want to move to Delmar really dumb. My kids had a 100% chance of graduating H.S. and going to college no matter what school they went to as should any parents, Albany Cop or not. If you think that whether your kids go to Albany High or Bethlehem will determine whether they graduate, you have little clue as to being a parent. You simply seem unaware of the importance to a kid of their parent(s) expectations, assistance, praise, and love in making sure that their chance of graduating is also 100%.

I know this is off topic but, it really irks me that the folks that think charter schools, or private schools or parochial schools or the public schools can make kids succeed not only without the necessary help from their homes, but often in spite of the home situation, are totally clueless as to the world that these kids who are dropping out and failing out live in every day.

So, as to a residency requirement, it is a no brainer. There are too many reason to list as to why I still find that the city I adopted permanently 27 years ago is a great place to live. Some people dig the burbs, that's fine for them, as long as they are not being paid as a city employee by my taxes...

I'm taking some dramatic license (none / 0) (#18)
by AlfredMoisiu on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 06:50:16 PM EST

But the point stands. Albany public schools really suck, particularly the middle schools. The school people like to play the "po black folk" card, but even a good elementary school like school 19 has poor performance compared to schools in other communities.

I love living in the city. But my kids went to catholic schools, and if my kids stick around to raise their family here, they'll be going to private schools as well. I knew of a city workers, including cops and firemen, who sacrificed alot to do the same for their kids.

If you have the resources and are willing to sacrifice for your kids -- that's the no brainer.

[ Parent ]

thank you (none / 0) (#21)
by hailstorm on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 07:14:02 AM EST

the myth that your kids are doomed if they go to a city school is little more than an urban legend. it's not the inner-city schools that are failing the kids, it's their parents.

if i had a dime for every time i heard "i'd love to live in the city, but the schools are so bad".

maybe if all these concerned parents actually DID move to the city the schools wouldn't be so "bad" after all.

just a thought.

[ Parent ]

: Well said (none / 0) (#24)
by Tom Paine on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:12:00 AM EST

I hear the same thing and tell people the same thing.
What kills me is this city government hasn't worked cooperativley with the schools to improve both the schools and the city in dozens of years.

[ Parent ]

Good Job Corey I have a mixed reaction (none / 0) (#10)
by albarbor on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 03:37:14 PM EST

It is about time that Corey represented that 3rd Ward seat. In the past I have agreed with Corey on certain issues. On this one I am skeptical.

If I recall correctly I believe I was in Kosovo, when Mayor Jennings fought to restructure the land payments for the Empire State Plaza. I am sure someone will correct me on this one. My point is Albany has been divided for decades. When Governor Rockefeller built the plaza it further divided the community. I am not sure what Corey's legislation will accomplish. I want a smaller police force and more over a smaller government. I get it we are going to move people from having jobs at the Albany Housing Authority to working for the police or fire department brilliant I wish I would have thought of that one.

If Corey is right and Jerry is wrong I think Corey should run for Mayor of the City of Albany.

This legislation is not going to create any new jobs. Corey if you talk to the people you represent they will tell you the problem is jobs not whether or not a fire fighter or cop lives in the city of Albany. If Mr. Jennings has a deputy with ties to a private corporation that can bring jobs to the City of Albany that is a trade off that is worth it. I know Uncle Rukus over on Livingston Ave. can not bring in a LOWES, Home Depot or a Wal Mart.

Corey said he is supporting Obama he needs to listen to Obama more clearly "scapegoating". Corey "scapegoating" means when you attack Mayor Jennings when really your beef is with the state and Governor Spitzer. The Mayor started a fight over the Empire State Plaza that to this day no one on the common council has supported him. If you need an issue Corey how about that. An Albany Cop who lives in Delmar, Colonie or Cohoes who cares. Colonie has Colonie Center. Guilderland has Crossgates Mall. The City of Albany has the Empire State Plaza.

Check this article on residency out!!! (none / 0) (#11)
by hawkny on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 05:32:44 PM EST

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1153/is_v109/ai_4459854

: A more recent article (none / 0) (#19)
by AlfredMoisiu on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 06:50:44 PM EST

http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/issueoftheweek/20060417/200/1822
I think this article has a pretty balanced overview of the issue.

[ Parent ]

Good Article Hawk (none / 0) (#14)
by albarbor on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:23:36 AM EST

Residency requirements sound good just like those housing projects sound good in the beginning. You can't have residency requirements for some and not residency requirements for all municipal workers.

It's a "Half Ass" policy that give us on one side "Socialism" and on the other side "Democracy". Socialism means reserving government controlled programs for some and punishing others. Democracy is creating programs in which everyone benefits. Corey needs to find a real cause to fight for and this is not it.

We want the best and brightest employed in the City of Albany and America private and public. Uncle Rukus from Clinton Ave. needs to have his or her resume be able to stand up to anyone outside of the City of Albany that Mr. Jennings wants to hire. Or Uncle Rukus should go and vote Mr. Jennings out of office and vote for Corey as Mayor.

Well, there you go again DIA (none / 0) (#26)
by one flew east on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:46:53 PM EST

I have repeatedly challenged you on some of the law enforcement entries you have written about and have proven you wrong more than once. Yep, you're right, that must make me a hack. I guess that everyone who doesn't agree with you and proves you wrong, must be a hack.

You remember the triple murders on Delaware Ave that you said had to be a result of "drugs and gangs". I posted several facts before the Times Union, but you didn't want to hear any of it. Again, the murders had nothing to do with "drugs and gangs", but you hung on to that belief until the Times Union told you otherwise. Please, name me one time when you discredited something I posted. Something tells me I'll be waiting a long time. Probably as long as I'll be waiting for the Times Union to print the other side of "You fit the profile".

Oh, and one other thing...........I'm still here!

: OFE (none / 0) (#27)
by DIA on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 04:34:01 AM EST

you mean the triple murder where the guy shot three people and stole their drugs and money? that one?

[ Parent ]

Yep (none / 0) (#28)
by one flew east on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 11:55:21 AM EST

That's the one.........you know where he stole the drugs and money as an after thought. It had nothing to do with the murders. And only a self righteous, single minded person like you would think so, even after all the facts came out. Damn, you must be so angry that it didn't fit into your agenda.

Now that's a fact!!

Mayor Jennings on Residency Requirements | 28 comments (28 topical, 0 hidden)

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Mayor Jennings on Residency Requirements

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