Albany's Lawyers Guns & Money


By champlain, Section Diaries
Posted on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 06:54:52 AM EST

"Machine Gun Scandal"

Sounds pretty ominous doesn't it?

Sounds even worse when Albany city taxes are paying for lawyers who will lie in court documents about the machine gun scandal, eh?

When you look at Brendan Lyons latest story in the Albany Times Union about the Albany Police Dept. machine gun scandal 12/23, looks like the Albany Corp. Counsel's office and the APD can't seem to keep their story straight:

"City officials last year stated that the machine guns were used in crime-fighting. The city's attorneys made the assertion, which is false, while denying the release of records under a Freedom of Information Law request filed by the Times Union."

Don't worry dear reader, it gets even better:

The newspaper has challenged the denial in court, where a judge has been reviewing the case for nearly two years. In a recent motion, attorneys for the Times Union accused city officials of engaging in "protracted litigation in an effort to conceal misconduct."

"The public has a right to know whether members of the APD (and others) abused their position of trust to obtain illegal weapons for personal use," the newspaper's attorneys wrote.

http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=649743&category=FRONTPG&BCCode=HOME&n ewsdate=12/23/2007&TextPage=1

Meanwhile, the APD Chief, Jimmy Tuffey recently commented that the guns were never deployed by the Albany department and that many of the officers who purchased them were simply gun enthusiasts who took the weapons home.

So which is it Jerry the Tan? What's the TRUTH Lil'Jimmy? Never deployed or 'used in crime-fighting'?

There's so many crimes in this scandal I don't know where to begin.

First off, mere posession of a machine-gun in New York is a FELONY. Remember too, that this is New York, a state with some pretty f'ing strict gun laws. Thus, the law calls for some "presumptions" if you posess a machine-gun, you don't get any special dispensation if you are a cop or a prosecutor or a judge, who happens to privately posess a machine-gun.

The law in NY says:
"The  presence  in  any room, dwelling, structure or vehicle of any machine-gun is presumptive evidence of its unlawful  possession  by  all persons occupying the place where such machine-gun is found."

This ain't rocket science - ya don't need to be some kinda legal scholar to get this - that law is right up there on the internets for all to see.

So why the f'ing hell is Lil'Jimmy spewing this drivel to the Albany Common Council?:

"If they were purchased and the officers were told they were OK to purchase as a member of the police department then you have to have (criminal) intent, and if there's no intent there then it wouldn't be illegal," Tuffey told the committee.

Sorry Jimmy.  Nobody's buying your lying this time. New York State has a 'presumptive evidence' rule for posessing machine guns.  If you posess one you're committing a FELONY. Ya know, Jimmy's supposed to be head cop in Albany, ya think he'd know that one? By the by who the hell believes anything Lil'Jimmy says anymore?

Furthermore, doesn't the Common Council pay their own lawyer to advise them on the law and call bullshit on this smoke-screen cover-up of all the felonies being committed here?

Now let's get to the crimes of the Albany Corp. Counsel's lawyers. When ya file papers with the court in NY, a lawyer has to swear or affirm the truth of the papers under the penalty of PERJURY.
PERJURY, that's one of those fancy legal words for LYING.

LYING in sworn court papers is a FELONY:

"A  person  is  guilty  of  perjury in the second degree when he swears falsely and when his false statement is (a) made in a subscribed written instrument for which an oath is required  by  law,  and  (b)  made  with
intent  to  mislead  a public servant in the performance of his official functions,  and  (c)  material  to  the  action,  proceeding  or  matter involved. Perjury in the second degree is a class E felony."

Yikes!  When lawyers are convicted of a FELONY, they are pretty much automatically disbarred. That could be a looming and scary problem for some of the lawyers the City of Albany is paying with your tax dollars.

Hmmmm, 'protacted litigation in an effort to conceal misconduct' who does that sound like? Maybe Dick Cheney, or possibly Scooter Libby, that White House convicted felon, or perhaps Karl Rove?

The Mayor of the City of Albany and the leadership on the Albany Police Department have a lot of big and felonious problems. Seems they think they can repeatedly commit crimes and then lie to the public and reporters and always get away with it. It also seems as if their lawyers and the police unions and other public officials aid and support this regular and consistant lying and misleading. These are not new problems:

http://www.democracyinalbany.com/story/2007/3/4/94039/96175
http://www.democracyinalbany.com/story/2007/3/15/163149/977
http://www.democracyinalbany.com/story/2007/7/1/71321/60544

My question is when are the good citizens of Albany going to throw this felonious wrecking crew out of public office?

My question is when is the District Attorney or the U.S. Attorney going to start prosecuting some of these several felonies being committed by Albany City employees that are paid with your tax dollars?

My question is when will the Albany Common Council start to use its subpoena power to investigate this and get to the truth of the machine-gun scandal?

Well.....?

Anyone.....?

+ crickets chirping +

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Albany's Lawyers Guns & Money | 27 comments (27 topical, 0 hidden)
updated (none / 0) (#1)
by DIA on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 07:41:16 AM EST
my post with the appropriate video.  

common council using their subpoena power?   Now that is funny.

Tarrytown cop charged with machine-gun FELONY (none / 0) (#2)
by champlain on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 10:38:03 AM EST
Doesn't look like the U.S. Attorneys in the Southern District of New York have any problems charging local cops with illegal posession of a machine gun:
http://yonkerstribune.typepad.com/yonkers_tribune/2007/10/us-charges-tarr.html

Michael J. Garcia, the United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York, announced that Anthony Rypka, Jr., a police officer in Tarrytown, New York, was arraigned today in White Plains federal court by Chief United States Magistrate Judge Lisa Margaret Smith on charges that he ....possessed an illegal, unregistered fully automatic sub-machine gun.

In the current Indictment, Rypka is charged with: ... one count of possessing a machine gun, which carries, upon conviction, a maximum sentence of 10 years in prison; and ... one count of possessing a firearm not registered to him in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record, which carries, upon conviction, a maximum sentence of 10 years in prison. Each count also carries a maximum fine of $250,000.

I wonder what Glenn Suddaby's problem is? You know Glenn - he's the U.S. Attorney for the Northern District which includes Albany. Is Glenn in the bag for the Jerry/Jimmy wrecking crew? Is that why he won't prosecute? Why won't Glenn charge any APD cops or others with this crime? I wonder if this failure to prosecute is gonna cause any problems for Glenn's recent efforts to become a U.S. district court judge? Maybe some concerned citizens may want to give Glenn a call so he can get on this right away: PHONE: (315) 448-0672.  Happy dialing.

Meanwhile, as of mid-year 2007, the City of Albany's gun problems were on a wild rampage:

...data kept by state Division of Criminal Justice Services show firearm-related assaults up 111 percent in Albany so far this year...                    
Albany Times Union 7/15/07 Editorial


I think you're confused. (none / 0) (#4)
by AlfredMoisiu on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 02:37:29 PM EST
Why would you pick that case as an example? None of the news reports go into the details of the firearm charges, other than that he was a gun dealer as well as a cop, but its pretty likely in my mind that the Federal  prosecution was a result of his state charges for child pornography netting him only 7 years.

Under federal law, you CAN own machine guns manufactured prior to 1986, with some caveats. I believe that a TU article said that the weapons in question were M-14s, which were manufactured in the 50's. The US Attorney isn't going to lock up a bunch of cops for 10 years for failing to pay a $200 transfer tax.

New York law is much stricter, so you might have better luck calling Mr. Soares.

[ Parent ]

Ball of Confusion (none / 0) (#5)
by champlain on Mon Dec 24, 2007 at 08:34:01 AM EST
If the Tarrytown cop prosecution isn't enough for you, perhaps the prosecutions in Oregon, Texas and Michigan can help convince you:

"In Oregon, Texas and Michigan, police officers and two prosecutors have been charged with federal firearms and tax evasion crimes for buying guns through their departments in a similar manner."
http://timesunion.com/ASPStories/storyprint.asp?StoryID=630735

I guess maybe those federal firearm felonies and tax evasion crimes by cops and prosecutors are A - OK with swells like you? Forgive me for believing cops and prosecutors were supposed to uphold and enforce the law instead of flout it repeatedly and then lie about it.

Failure to pay a transfer tax is not the only crime here. There were responsibilities by APD to keep those machine guns accounted for and registered - that did not happen. Some of the machine guns were found in local gun shops - those are potential illegal sale and transfer/transport crimes. Other machine guns were found in cop homes - again more illegal transfer/transport and posession crimes. Another machine gun was in the posession of a prosecutor - again more illegal transfer/transport and posession crimes. Other machine guns are still unaccounted for. What if any of those unaccounted for machine guns are ever used in a murder, or even an accidental shooting or manslaughter - you can just imagine what the City of Albany's liability would be on that! It would make the David Scaringe shooting $1 million plus settlement look like pocket change. If there ever was a keystone kops kaper this is it.

Also, federal firearms law only allows posession of machine guns manufactured and registered by 1986 with some very small execeptions which I do not believe apply here. There are a million questions here and Tuffey's not providing any solid answers other than trying desparately to cover his ass. While you are trying to spread confusion about the illicit acts of the APD leadership, its clear that this was a major clusterF**k and several state and federal laws were very likely repeatedly broken by perhaps dozens of individuals - cops, a prosecutor, and maybe judges. But we won't know anything will we, as long as Tuffey keeps all that info close to his chest and the City of Albany keeps denying FOIL requests and litigating those denials with your tax dollars?

This is just another flashing neon example of the failure to enforce the gun crimes already on the books. All sorts of illicit and probably very illegal activity happening within the APD leadership - but absolutely no prosecution and an extreme reluctance to even INVESTIGATE what the hell happened. Meanwhile, Albany's firearm-related assaults stats are headed for the stratosphere.

What the hell?
 

[ Parent ]

You're the confused one. (none / 0) (#7)
by AlfredMoisiu on Mon Dec 24, 2007 at 08:58:13 PM EST
I don't need convincing to understand that in New York, an individual possessing or transferring a machine gun is a serious crime.

I have two issues with your position. One is your political agenda, which is essentially pushing the blame for this issue on the US Attorney's office (Appointed by an Administration you despise), while avoiding any mention of the Albany County DA (whom is your "progresssive" hero).

As someone who claims to want justice, I find you focus on Federal action interesting. Other than the $200 transfer tax, you don't have enough detail to even determine if there is a Federal case based on the media reports. Federal law grants alot of leeway to police officers, and there are alot of shades of grey regarding what constitutes the "official" possession of a weapon.

The TU mentioned that officers in other states have been busted in "similar" incidents. "Similar" doesn't mean the same from a legal point of view -- particularly when the Chief who authorized everything is dead, and most of the records are likely destroyed.

New York State, on the other hand, has some of the strictest gun laws in the country, and establishing a state case against the individuals who posessed these weapons sounds pretty easy based on the Times Union reporting. Why isn't the District Attorney and a Grand Jury investigating? And why isn't someone as passionate about this issue as you upset about their inaction?

My other issue is your attempt to tie this decade-old incident to firearm-related crime. It's a lame argument that is comparing apples and oranges -- there's simply no correlation.

[ Parent ]

Hey , Hey (none / 0) (#8)
by champlain on Tue Dec 25, 2007 at 10:41:24 AM EST
So if posessing a machine gun is a "serious crime" why are you so busy minimizing it? All your BS blather about "transfer tax" and "decades old" when it ain't just that. Wolfgang wrote the letter to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms saying APD HAD LOST TRACK OF TWELVE OF THE FORTY OR FIFTY PLUS MACHINE GUNS in 2003

Tuffey was on the APD force in 93, 94 and 95 when the forty or fifty plus machine guns were aledgedly purchased using the Albany Police Department as a front so multiple individuals could obtain the dozens of machine guns. Tuffey claiming he didn't know anything about it is total BS.

Tuffey's a bald-faced liar and a raging incompetent. Why can't you just admit that Lil'Jimmy's in way over his head?

Furthermore, looks like the City of Albany lawyers or other City officials were committing perjury in the court papers trying to fight the TU's FOIL requests on this story - these are possible felonies and it looks like those crimes happened in 2006.

There's plenty of people who know all about these multiple crimes, Assistant Chief Anthony Bruno is still in APD internal affairs and he appears to know plenty. Has Bruno been questioned by ATF?

As for Soares, it may be a bit sticky for him to investigate these multiple crimes by a law enforcment agency that he has to work with every day.  It would be a lot easier for the US Attorney with all those ATF agents whose main job is to investigate and help prosecute gun crimes. What's the hold-up?

Why can't you just admit that the City of Albany government is run by a wrecking crew of outlaw incompetents who will do and say anything to desparately hold on to their positions?

You have fun paying those higher City of Albany property taxes this year....mmkay?

[ Parent ]

Thanks for the confirmation (none / 0) (#11)
by AlfredMoisiu on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 09:13:30 PM EST
I'm glad that you too recognize that this is an open and shut case, which the local DA is certainly capable of handling. You have a way of beating around the bush sometimes. Thanks for delivering some clarity.

To answer one of your questions, I have no idea whom the ATF has spoken too -- since you and Soares are such good buddies, maybe you should ask him.

Soares usually has no problem doing his job, "sticky" or not. His office has managed to pull together some pretty tough cases with the limited resources at his disposal. It's kind of funny that he hasn't pursued a case that is as easy as proving that someone had an automatic weapon in their possession.

Typically we can count on you, champ, to get out the home addresses, phone numbers and other vital data about public officials who aren't performing. I wonder why you target the US Attorney and not the local prosecutor? It just seems odd to me.

[ Parent ]

What exactly are these weapons? (none / 0) (#9)
by Tom Paine on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 10:54:19 AM EST
Does anyone know exactly what these weapons were? I have read M-14s and M-16s, neither of which is a "machinegun" strictly speaking. That doesn't change a bit of this story since they are full-auto-capable and illegal - just asking, are there any actual machineguns involved here? Or do we not know that yet?

[ Parent ]
M14's and FN-FALs (none / 0) (#12)
by AlfredMoisiu on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 09:29:25 PM EST
Were the weapons mentioned by the TU.

The M14 is acutally still in limited military service -- it's based on the M1 Garand of WW2 and is capable for fully automatic fire. There are several civilian and specialized match-grade target-shooting versions that are semi-automatic on the market as well and legal to own.

The FN-FAL was a Belgian rifle that was widely exported and used in several European countries.

In New York, except for certain specific circumstances, it is illegal to possess the military versions of these guns. New York also has a particularly obnoxious "assault weapon" law that prohibits the possession of specific models (but allows the possession of other, nearly identical models) of civilian versions of these guns.

In other states, including Vermont and New Hampshire, it is possible to own the fully automatic versions, manufactured before 1986 after going through a registration process with the ATF/FBI.

[ Parent ]

Champ (none / 0) (#3)
by Roscoe on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 01:31:16 PM EST

Great post!

Just the facts... (none / 0) (#6)
by FedUp on Mon Dec 24, 2007 at 08:49:18 PM EST
What an amazing conflict of interest for Tuffey to do the investigation.  Sounds to me like he's already found those involved not guilty, so much for a fair and impartial investigation.  

"If they were purchased and the officers were told they were OK to purchase as a member of the police department then you have to have (criminal) intent, and if there's no intent there then it wouldn't be illegal," Tuffey told the committee.

Tom Paine (none / 0) (#10)
by albany layman on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 05:20:23 PM EST
The first article the TU published has the most info about the guns themselves.  To me, it's gibberish, but I'm not a "gun guy."  The TU has been consistent throughout its reporting in stating that the guns are illegal to possess.

NATO-quality, fully and semi-automatic assault rifles. M14 Military rifle The M14 is a lightweight shoulder rifle designed primarily for semi-automatic fire, but fully-automatic capable. The M14 was a standard U.S. Army infantry rifle until it was superseded by the M16 in the late 1960s. Other characteristics: 44.14 inches long 22-inch barrel 11.0 lbs. fully loaded 7.62mm ammo in 20-round clip Max effective range: 1,500 feet 20-30 rounds per minute semi-automatic 40-60 rounds per minute automatic 7.62mm NATO rounds The 7.62x51mm rifle cartridge became a standard among North American Treaty Organization nations in the 1950s. The ammo is widely available in a number of forms, including: Standard Ball cartridge Armor Piercing black cartridge tip Tracer orange cartridge tip Grenade grenade launching blank Long Range/Sniping hollow point Duplex two-bullet round Match designed for competition L1A1 military rifle The L1A1 is a British-licensed version of a design from the Belgian arms maker Fabrique National. The original Belgian Fusil Automatique Legere (FAL) was created to work with a standard 7.62mm NATO cartridge. The rifle is semi-automatic only and was later replaced with the 5.56mm SA80 for British military use. Other characteristics: 41.47 inches long 30-inch barrel 11.2 lbs. fully loaded 7.62mm ammo in 20-round clip Max effective range: 1,970 feet 20 rounds per minute semi-automatic


"Gun guy" OK (none / 0) (#13)
by Tom Paine on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 06:20:00 PM EST
Gee, I almost hate to admit it but I am a recovering gun nut and former Infantry guy from long, long ago.

Both the M-14 and L1A1 (British-manufactured FN-FAL) would be considered rifles, not machineguns, by anyone who knows military weapons. This is despite the fact that both are selective-fire - translation: they can fire semi or full automatic depending on which mode the shooter selects.

"Semi-auto" means that each time the shooter squeezes the trigger, the weapon fires one round. Squeeze again and it fires again, without the shooter having to manually reload. For example, the pistols most cops carry are semi-autos. They do not need to be reloaded between each shot.  

"Full-Auto" means each time the shooter squeezes the trigger, it will start firing and will not stop until the shooter releases the trigger or the weapon runs out of ammo (or it malfunctions). Generally, full-auto weapons are illegal as hell in NY.

I realize to the general public, anything that can fire full auto is often considered a "machinegun", but these weapons are absolutely not machineguns in any sense. If I were writing a newspaper article and wanted to alarm/inflame people, or just dumb down the article, I'd call them "machineguns" or "assault weapons" but they are neither.

I've never been a cop but I cannot imagine any legitimate use for a police force like Albany to posess any of these weapons. I know, they say they never really did posess these weapons and I believe that. It looks like a front for a few guys to buy guns they wanted for themselves.

The thing is, the NATO 7.62mm round they fire is very powerful. It will go right through things like cars and wooden walls and still have enough energy to kill people on the other side. That's what it was designed to do. So if any police officer ever did use one, and missed with some of their shots (which they probably would do - there is a tendency to fire until the magazine is empty when under great stress), there is no telling what could happen to innocents in other nearby houses or a half-mile down the street. Bullets don't stop just because they miss the target.

So it seems to me one order of business is to get assurance that the APD doesn't have any full-auto weapons that fire full-power ammo like the 7.62mm NATO round. That question should be posed to Tuffey and he should be required to answer it with a very direct "no, period" or explain why the answer is "yes" to some damned skeptical people.

The one legitimate exception might be sniper rifles for a SWAT-type group but those guys don't need full-auto with a sniper rifle and are asking for trouble if they do have them.

Again I wish to stress this doesn't change any of the facts or judgments others have offered, I just think the details are worth knowing and the rhetoric should be accurate. If anyone confronts the police on this I'd suggest avoiding the term "machinegun" and just name the actual weapons. You don't want the headline to read "Tuffey denies any machineguns in Albany" because he might be right and then you look like you don't know what you're talking about.  

[ Parent ]

Have to slap myself on the forehead here (none / 0) (#14)
by Tom Paine on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 06:25:57 PM EST
Tuffey must not know jack about weapons or he would have made the "no machineguns in Albany" argument already. As I said, technically, he'd be correct.

[ Parent ]
apples and oranges (none / 0) (#15)
by integritypd on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 04:47:05 AM EST
The problem is you're comparing industry standards to government classifications, which stem from the 1930s. These guns are "registered" as "machine guns." If they were simply semi-auto then none of them would need be registered with the feds in the first place and they could've bought them direct without going through the PD. If they werent machine guns the feds wouldn't have had cause to take em from that gun store ... the tu should do a better job explaining this but either way theyre illegal to possess in New York, and as you noted they were not intended for city deployment.
integritypd
Too much information has been given out... (none / 0) (#16)
by Jim Travers on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 02:42:20 PM EST
that is either wrong or is misleading.

Let's start here: 18USC Sect44.101

"On September 13, 1994, Congress passed the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, Public Law 103-322.
Title IX, Subtitle A, Section 110105 of this Act generally made it unlawful to manufacture, transfer and possess semiautomatic assault weapons (SAWs) and to transfer and possess large capacity ammunition feeding devices (LCAFDs). The law also required importers and manufacturers to place certain markings on SAWs and LCAFDs, designating they were for export or law enforcement/government use. Significantly, the law provided that it would expire 10 years from the date of enactment.
Accordingly, effective 12:01 a.m. on September 13, 2004, the provisions of the law ceased to apply. These provisions are marked "repealed" in this publication."

This ban although repealed federally still stands in New York State.

Tom, while I agree with you that this is commonly referred to as a "select-fire rifle", and that military personnel and some other enthusiasts are accustomed to calling only belt-fed .30 or .50 cal. full-auto firing weapons machine guns the, federal government considers it and any other full-auto fire capable rifle with a large capacity magazine to be a "machine gun". (Actually, "sub-machine gun" would be the proper term to use for the M-14 assault rifle.)

So technically, Tuffey and others would be wrong to call them anything less than machine guns" because that's their legal definition. To do otherwise would be foolish and I'm surprised you think that this would help Tuffey as it only helps to further obfuscate the truth.

Integrity, you are mistaken too, by saying: "If they were simply semi-auto then none of them would need be registered with the feds in the first place and they could've bought them direct without going through the PD. If they weren't machine guns the feds wouldn't have had cause to take em from that gun store ... " though if you had said "if purchased prior to September 13, 1994" your statement would have been true. After that date these large capacity semi-automatic weapons became illegal to own by federal statute and remain illegal to own under New York law, unless purchased and registered prior to then. Being illegal, the feds had every right to remove the weapons from the store. However it is irrelevant. The weapons were fully-automatic.

As I pointed out in an earlier post on this subject and Tom has raised again, the weapon is notoriously inaccurate when it's in full auto firing mode.

AM, you're way off-base. Some of your statements are wrong. "Under federal law, you CAN own machine guns manufactured prior to 1986, with some caveats." You unfortunately failed to mention those caveats. I wish you would.

You can only legally possess a machine gun if you legally owned and registered it prior to 1986. The manufacture date has no bearing on ownership.

27CFR part 479.105(b)
"(b) Machine guns lawfully possessed prior to May 19, 1986. A
machine gun possessed in compliance
with the provisions of this part
prior to May 19, 1986, may continue
to be lawfully possessed by the
person to whom the machine gun is
registered and may, upon compliance
with the provisions of this part,
be lawfully transferred to and possessed
by the transferee."

This applies to New York residents, even though the assault weapons ban remains in effect here.

AM, regardless of the reporting by the TU, standard M-14 service rifles were produced from 1959 to 1964. The M-14 weapon wasn't issued until 1959 and the first unit to be completely armed with it, the 101st Airborne, didn't occur until 1961. To say it is still in use is also misleading without qualifying you statement. Sort of like saying the Model T is still in use. Much modified varients of the M-14 are still in use would be more accurate, although some M-14s are still used as sniper rifles.

I'm also am having a difficult time trying to figure out why you're trying to avoid blaming Suddaby for his failure to prosecute and would rather this fault fall on Soares. Seems to me that it's you with the political agenda rather than Champlain. These types of cases are proper to prosecute in a federal court, moreso than in a county court.

Suddaby should have convened a grand jury or called for a special prosecutor to explore this case rater than saying: "That issue was never brought to us by ATF."

From the TU article 8-26-07 Cops source of guns:

"U.S. Attorney Glenn T. Suddaby said the decision by his office not to prosecute Olesen or Frampton had nothing to do with dozens of police and at least one county prosecutor buying assault weapons.

"No, that is not something that was part of any investigation or any referral that was ever brought to our office," Suddaby said. "That issue was never brought to us by ATF."

Suddaby said the decision to decline prosecution had more to do with the job done by the ATF.

"It was quality of evidence issues," he said. "There are a number of issues which led us to make a decision that we were unable to go forward with the prosecution based on the investigation that was presented to us by ATF."

Another source close to the investigation disputes Suddaby's account. That source said federal prosecutors in Albany were fully aware of the Albany police situation and had expressed concern that prosecuting Olesen and Frampton could have triggered "a mess" because of the potential scandal."

I'll have more to say on DIA's post, but you may want to research the pertinent facts, starting with Wiki:
M-14: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-14
M-4 : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_Carbine

TITLE 27 CFR CHAPTER II
PART 478--COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION

TITLE 27 CFR CHAPTER II
PART 479--MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS

THE GUN CONTROL ACT OF 1968
TITLE 18, UNITED STATE CODE, CHAPTER 44

THE NATIONAL FIREARMS ACT
TITLE 26, UNITED STATES CODE, CHAPTER 53

More gun crap (none / 0) (#18)
by Tom Paine on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 07:31:19 PM EST
The M-14 is absolutely not classified as a submachinegun. Submachineguns fire pistol ammunition at full automatic. Submachienguns have effective ranges (typically) under 100 meters, whereas the M-14 can fire accurately at very long range (in semi-auto-mode).

I wrote nothing about the accuracy of the M-14 when firing full auto, although you are correct that it is wildly inacurrate in that mode, which is one of the reasons it has no place in a city police department.

[ Parent ]

For some rather strange reason... (none / 0) (#17)
by Jim Travers on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 03:07:54 PM EST
I've had great difficulty in posting my last comment.

The preview would clip out a part of my comment, the strange part being that it was meaty.

Two lines separated by several more. First I couldn't get this to preview:

"No, that is not something that was part of any investigation or any referral that was ever brought to our office," Suddaby said. "That issue was never brought to us by ATF."

Or the last part of this, which I finally posted without it.

Another source close to the investigation disputes Suddaby's account. That source said federal prosecutors in Albany were fully aware of the Albany police situation and had expressed concern that prosecuting Olesen and Frampton could have triggered "a mess" because of the potential scandal."

I don't know? I even rebooted my pc and still didn't copy correctly.

Yes Tom, you are correct... (none / 0) (#19)
by Jim Travers on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 10:22:53 PM EST
and I was mistaken about the M-14 being clasified as a sub-machine gun. The proper qualifier is that a sub-machine gun fires pistol ammunition.

I wonder how a Thompson contender is classified? I suppose a pistol even though it fires rifle ammunition?

J.T. (none / 0) (#20)
by integritypd on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 05:40:22 AM EST
I agree. These weapons were fully automatic, NFA weapons. The federal definition doesn't make any distinction between belt fed or not. Pull the trigger and fire more than a round and you've basically got a machinegun even if its only designed to do that. Illegal to own almost under any circumstance except for a cop shop or military outfit, and totally useless for tactical purposes unless the Korean Army came marching along the Hudson. That's really the point, eh? The were never used and Tuffey admitted as much. So what is everyone debating here exactly.
integritypd
Accuracy of terminology (none / 0) (#23)
by Tom Paine on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 08:48:36 AM EST
I think the side-issue being debated is the accuracy of the terminology. All I'm saying is, you don't want to get in a debate about weapons and then get called out for using the wrong language. Then the story becomes the lack of knowledge of those raising the issue, rather than the issue itself. And yes, it's a side issue.

[ Parent ]
issues (none / 0) (#24)
by DIA on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 09:32:50 AM EST
I have fired my share of guns.  Sometimes I hit what I aim at.  However, I've never been a cop or in the armed forces and thus they have all been of the single shot variety although in certain circumstances I may be able to really click through 2 to 3 rounds of a pump action shotgun (even if that doesn't mean the Grouse was affected by my actions).

The facts are that crimes were committed.  No one is disputing that (other than the top cop in Albany and his various supporters).   Oddly enough, no one is prosecuting it either.   Conversations about the workings of various automatic weapons are interesting, but not relevant.

[ Parent ]

Integrity, I believe the only argument is... (none / 0) (#21)
by Jim Travers on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 09:47:18 AM EST
why hasn't there been a prosecution brought by those who are not only empowered to, but are obligated to.

And it's not so much an argument as it is our citizens expressing their dismay that those empowered to enforce our laws have themselves conspired to break them and have repeatedly lied to us.

The black eye this scandal has given our sense of public safety has been further abused by the chief. With each lie he tells it's like he's poking his finger in it, keeping us blind to the truth.

Does anyone believe he is without fault here? He was on the force when some of the purchases took place and may have bought one of the machine guns himself. And he's in charge of the investigation?

He should recuse himself of any investigation and call in the FBI to handle it if he wants to preserve any integrity left in the APD. Then he should resign.

burst mode (none / 0) (#22)
by wredlich on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 07:26:48 AM EST
just an FYI. Friend of mine once told me about burst mode in military rifles. Fires three rounds on one pull. He found that useful. On full auto you lose accuracy fast.
Burst mode is illegal for civilians.
W
Albany Lawyer Warren Redlich Blog: Albany Lawyer Blog
I agree with Jim's comments.. (none / 0) (#25)
by FedUp on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 06:36:22 AM EST
..I feel that this whole thing REEKS of widespread corruption.  It's in Tuffey's best interest to keep the lid on it; problem is he's been caught in so many lies/smokescreen attempts.  

Up for discussion - what would you do if you were running the investigation??

The statute of limitations has probably expired on charging the gun purchasers, and some of the missing guns may never be recovered.  If I were in charge of this investigation I'd recover any remaining guns, disclose the final correct total # of guns accounted and unaccounted for to the public; and demand Tuffey's resignation based solely on his inability to make good on his promise of an open, accountable department.

Until there is true leadership the APD will never move forward.

You're right, so don't tell us... (none / 0) (#26)
by Tom Paine on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:57:20 AM EST
Tell the Times Union, the DA, the Mayor, the Common Council, the local TV stations.....

A couple of things would happen if any kind of legitimate action were really happening:

a) The City would respond to the TU's FOIL request rather than fighting it.
b) You'd see some shiny new weapons purchase & possession policy announced for the APD, amid great promises that this will never happen again. This is the easiest part (costs nothing and doesn't involve admitting guilt) and they haven't even done this.
c) The accounting you requested, weapon by weapon, would be provided.
d) Some kind of legitimate or even eyewash committee would be formed that contained at least one CC member and someone from the DA's office to do a review/report/dog-and-pony show to create the official record and wrap the whole thing up.

It still stuns me that these guys don't even attempt the appearance of getting the facts out. Hit me with the naive club again....

[ Parent ]

I have (none / 0) (#27)
by FedUp on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 04:44:56 AM EST
and continue to - ie to Shawn Morris at the Common Council, the TU...but not the Mayor. An outside investigation by a federal agency is needed for all the valid points you raise.  

PS - Tom - you're not naive, just honest and ethical.  Unfortunately we're dealing with people who play by a different set of rules.

[ Parent ]

Albany's Lawyers Guns & Money | 27 comments (27 topical, 0 hidden)
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